Metagame np: Stage 1: New Rules (Vivillon quickban post #173)

[Melt Gibson]

Very glad to see Vivillon gone! Here are my thoughts on some mons in the tier right now as a UU player who also plays PU

- I love this thing so so much, just such a useful tool that I find myself slapping on almost every team I build. Access to Surf is great, immunity ability + Tera is always a winning combo, access to Nasty Plot is awesome and it's very very fast. It also matches up well into a lot of things right now, notably Quaxwell, and is also faster than Pyroar and Houndoom and able to threaten them with both Surf and Focus Blast. The threat of +1 Thunderbolts from Lightning Rod is also not out of the realm of possibility in most matchups. Absolutely stellar mon.

- It's cool, but man do I wish it was just a little faster. Webs is awesome in this tier right now with there being so many offensive pieces that appreciate it, but it'd be a lot cooler if you could run Boots without having to worry about the lead wars. Losing to Houndoom, Skuntank, Raichu, and Gogoats that carry Rock Slide kinda sucks, but it's the only thing we have so it works fine I suppose.

- Bow down to your god. Absolutely no holds barred the undisputed king of SVPU. It does it all. Punishing contact? He's right there being good to ya. Priority? He's right there being good to ya. Removing T-Spikes? He's right there being good to ya. It's just so useful that you really have to justify not using it moreso than you have to justify choosing to use it.

 

[Melt Gibson]

Cacturne @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Tera Blast
- Focus Blast

Cool set I threw together, or more accurately, asa tossed me a bone with this and I ran with it. You look a lot like a discounted version of Flapple, but unlike Flapple, you have a much more spammable STAB option and are able to switch on Basculin more consistently. 216 Timid allows you to outrun 252+ Perrserker and avoid getting U-turned on, while TB Ground both gives you a (see: reliable) option for hitting things that otherwise wall you, like Skuntank and Houndoom, while also still pairing nicely with your Water immunity. There's also the benefit of pairing exceptionally well with Vespiquen, which provides you a slow pivot to get in safely alongside Spikes support to chip specific targets, most notably SpDef Skuntank which does not drop to a TB Ground in one hit without prior chip. Giga Drain is there to give some extra longevity, but you could really throw any Grass move you want in there, Leaf Storm to nuke or Energy Ball as a midground both seem fine. Focus Blast does good damage to things like Houndoom, Pyroar, and Skuntank if you've already used your Tera or would prefer to save it, while also doing about 40% to physically defensive Tinkatuff. Not a lot, but it counts on a mon with like zero recovery that can't afford to run Leftovers. I think it's worth a shot, not having Sucker seems not great but Specs Dark Pulse is not easy to switch into, especially when it's stronger than Houndoom's.

 

[Zelcra]

Some suggestions for the speed tiers thread (all pulled from sample sets). I only scratched the surface but I do hope this prompts some more ppl to look through the speed tiers to see if there's anything else worth updating.

Sets	Speed Tiers	What I suggest:
Scarf	525 / Raichu / 110 / +Spe / 252 / +1	Add
Scarf	513 / Pyroar / 106 / +Spe / 252 / +1	Add
Defensive	242 / Misdreavus / 85 / +Spe / 56 / 0	Add
with naive/jolly	229 / Cacturne / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 0	Add
Stealth Rock, RestTalk	207 / Gabite / 82 / +Spe / 28 / 0	Add
AV	201 / Gogoat / 68 / Neutral / 160 / 0	I'm not sure if I would add or replace. Gogoat's dex uses a speed investment that the Speed Tiers thread does not, and the thread uses an investment that doesn't appear in the dex: 201 / Gogoat / 68 / Neutral / 116 / 0
AV	137 / Crabominable / 43 / Neutral / 60 / 0	Similar situation to AV Gogoat, although the below quote does have a lil mistake (fix is in green) 137 / Crabominable / 48 / Neutral / 48 / 0
Trick Room	81 / Crabominable / 43 / -Spe / 0 / 0	Add

 

[Melt Gibson]

NEW DROPS NEW DROPS NEW DROPS WOOOO

On paper this seems to be excellent. Fat PhysDef Fairy with a Fire immunity (!) and Wish is really cool for this tier, especially with Flapple and the rest of the goobers running around. It might not fit on a ton of playstyles? Wish is kinda just for the dog itself since its base HP is kinda shit. Good addition though

Also omega based drop right now seeing as Lilligant was getting a little silly. Unaware just makes this thing a pain in the ass and Knock Off hurts it enough for it to not be omega dumb.

Physical Dark? In Misdreavus meta?? Fucking tight. My only worry is that he's a bit slow, but I think Moxie Scarf has potential to be a wee bit stupid.

I am so so excited to use this, oh my god. Boots meta means Zard being forced into it means jack shit and it has so many cool tools. The king has returned!

Looks like a worse Masquerain with Spikes lol. Skuntank having an almost monopoly on TSpikes can not be good for this thing. Do not think it will be good sadly.

and the RISES ofc

I'm gonna miss this one, a Water immunity that could hit Basculin back was such a nice thing to have and it had all around great tools :(

what the fuck are they doin over there give him back >:(

 

[MasterPlayer]

Dansbun dropping at the same time as Honchkrow is just funny. And having an Unaware mon is very nice when stuff like lilligant exists

 

[I am New]

Physical Dark? In Misdreavus meta?? Fucking tight. My only worry is that he's a bit slow, but I think Moxie Scarf has potential to be a wee bit stupid.

btw Honchkrow can run special sets. It has a sp.atk similar to zard.

 

[Morge]

Uninformed first impressions time wooo

Rises:

I'm really gonna miss cacturne, one of my favorite mons to use. No more water immunity for basculin also SUCKS

Very strong offensive mon to lose, also sad to see this one go

Drops:

A fully evolved fairy type that isn't bad? Nice. Fat physical bulk and decent special bulk, and a fire immunity, this seems really good. Probably completely dunks on houndoom

another webs setter, not as threatening as masq, but with spikes and circle throw this brings some good utility. Stakeout first impression could also possibly have potential but I feel less confident in that

125 attack stab sucker punch is really scary, and it has the potential to snowball with moxie. 71 speed is a tad slow but I can see it being very scary with scarf, or just playing guessing games with sucker punch.

Unaware is super nice to have in this meta. Great bulk with eviolite and reliable recovery with slack off will probably make this a great wall, although being a rocks weak mon who can't afford to run boots is unfortunate and knock off ruins it.

another special attacking fire type to join houndoom and pyroar, although zard can also probably pull off physical sets. This thing has a lot of options although its somewhat limited by its 4x rock weakness forcing it to run boots.

Oh yeah I guess this is back here too. Not really sure why it rose to NU and I don't really see it doing much here either.

Very strong drops all around this time with some unfortunate rises, gonna be interesting to see how this shakes up the meta. No new hazard removal sadly

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

CHARIZARD

He's back and, well, worse than ever.

In SS PU, Charizard was one the top tier pokemon, often being #1 in usage, but what has changed?

Roost, Defog, and Toxic are all gone.
Ouch.

Defensive/Utility sets are now dead, relegating Charizard to just attacking sets with the Dances, Belly Drum, and whatever Special set becomes the best now with 2 free moveslots. Maybe Wisp + Tera Blast, I'm not sure, with Scorching Sands also gone Charizard's special coverage options are pretty dire.

However, there are still some bright spots, notably all those scary Rock types are gone with only Lycanroc-M remaining. Also 100 Speed is a stronger speed tier in SV PU, with only a handful of threats being faster, notably Sneasel, Dugtrio, Electrode, and Raichu. However, there are also now 2 Fire immunities in Houndoom and Daschsbun, and Basuclin just ruins Charizard. The shift from Gen 8 to Gen 9 was really rough on Charizard and just stripping away that formerly great movepool. Am I being too pessimistic? Let me know, I would like Charizard to be great but I'm just not so sure about it at this moment.​

 

[Zelcra]

Just saw the new drops, so I'd thought I'd plop down some potentially useful speed tiers for the PU Speed Tiers, in order of speed:

Set	Speed Tier
Scarf	397 / Honchkrow / 71 / +Spe / 252 / +1
HDB (Timid/Jolly)	328 / Charizard / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0
HDB (Modest/Adamant)	299 / Charizard / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
HDB (Timid/Jolly)	265 / Honchkrow / 71 / +Spe / 252 / 0
Neutral	226 / Dachsbun / 95 / Neutral / 0 / 0
HDB (Adamant/Modest)	241 / Honchkrow / 71 / Neutral / 252 / 0
Defensive	134 / Crocalor / 49 / Neutral / 0 / 0
Defensive	106 / Spidops / 35 / Neutral / 0 / 0

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

Just saw the new drops, so I'd thought I'd plop down some potentially useful speed tiers for the PU Speed Tiers, in order of speed:

Set	Speed Tier
Scarf	397 / Honchkrow / 71 / +Spe / 252 / +1
Scarf	393 / Zorua-Hisui / 70 / +Spe / 252 / 0
HDB (Timid/Jolly)	328 / Charizard / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0
HDB (Modest/Adamant)	299 / Charizard / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
HDB (Timid/Jolly)	265 / Honchkrow / 71 / +Spe / 252 / 0
non-Scarf (Timid)	262 / Zorua-Hisui / 70 / +Spe / 252 / 0
Neutral	226 / Dachsbun / 95 / Neutral / 0 / 0
HDB (Adamant/Modest)	241 / Honchkrow / 71 / Neutral / 252 / 0
Defensive	134 / Crocalor / 49 / Neutral / 0 / 0
Defensive	106 / Spidops / 35 / Neutral / 0 / 0

did you mean to put +1 for Hisuian Zorua? It says 0 for zorua, yet its 4 speed lower than +1 Honchkrow.

 

[asa]

"rapid fire" thoughts on the drops :) gonna order these based on how much i've used the mons

i have found like every possible way to misspell this thing's name
Not getting any new removers was unfortunate, but getting another durable Wish passer that can viably hold Heavy-Duty Boots is a pretty good consolation prize. Dachsbun's HP isn't very high, but its Wishes feel good enough for a lot of Pokemon that are frail or easily get worn down (including a lot of our better hazard setters/breakers!). Of course, stuffing common Houndoom (+ Pyroar) variants is really huge, since these two were very annoying for bulky teams to play against if they didn't slot on something niche like Oinkologne. Dachs also checks other notable offensive threats, including Flapple and Honchkrow, and it does so without being completely passive, which is very epic. Having to slot coverage on stuff like Honchkrow to easily get through Dachs is a little annoying, but I love what it does for the tier overall.


I have used a shameful amount of Spidops in the past few days, and I can safely say that it is a Pokemon. I think offensive sets with Boots are probably the way to go with this thing, since they offer Spikes/webs, priority, pivoting, and potentially phazing all in one slot. It also has random coverage options to snipe stuff like Charizard and Dachsbun if you really need those chipped or out of the way. Anything else is probably very outclassed by one of the other Bug-type hazard setters we have (besides like Choice Band, which is funny but also ultra bad unless you seriously need a really strong STAB First Impression, trust me).


I expected Honchkrow to be way more broken, but it's mostly fine in my opinion. Despite losing a lot of its better tools coming into Gen 9, it still feels like it can sort of do any sort of offensive role. My biggest gripe with Honchkrow is probably that it really has to pick its spots to avoid instantly folding (whether to a foe's attack or Brave Bird's recoil), but I think I saw someone in the PS room argue that Honchkrow will usually force a trade at worst, which is admittedly a fair point to consider. I also don't like how slow Honchkrow is, and none of its many sets feel like they can solve both of these issues at the same time. Still, discerning its set from Team Preview can be a little tricky, so you can't get too comfortable just because you have something faster. Very fun Pokemon overall, and without being overbearing too!


This is probably the only drop that could end up being broken, but I don't think it's too problematic right now. Its movepool took some really heavy blows (most notably losing Defog, Roost, and Toxic), so it mainly has to settle for going on the offensive. However, despite losing some pretty important moves, Charizard still feels decently flexible and very threatening. Even though it basically has to run Boots to make real progress, its coverage and Speed make it dangerous to play around and let it rip through most of the Fire-immune foes we have one way or another. Hurricane is also just incredibly spammable right now, and physical setup sets can be pretty hard to stop unless you have something specific like Basculin to revenge kill or a healthy Gabite to use Stone Edge/Dragon Tail.


I guess this + Dachsbun makes stall/semi-stall more usable, but I don't really see where else you'd want to use Crocalor. Being weak to Stealth Rock and needing to hold Eviolite is a very unfortunate combo, and there are other ways to deal with setup sweepers, but Unaware is still pretty nice for defensive teams to have if they're also willing to run removers. Crocalor's not terrible at all, just kind of specific and not worth using most of the time.


There's probably some(?) merit in disguising Zorua-H as like Charizard or Quaxwell to Knock Off a special wall or spinblocker, but that sort of tactic was better when everything wasn't running Boots and it was harder to tell Zorua-H apart from its teammates. Now it's sort of just gimmicky, and not the fun kind either. Still adorable, though.

 

[Thundercalf101]

Hey my fellow Wugtrio fans, or the Wugheads as I like to call 'em. See, there are more of us, I'm not the only one who uses Wugtrio DAD.
Anyway:
Wugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Dive
- Tera Blast
- Stomping Tantrum
- Throat Chop

Not giving my boy Swift Swim was an unforgivable sin. I've actually been able to use Wugtrio to decent results, it's fun to use at least. Yeah, yeah, I know, Basculin is better, but Basculin ain't a W like Wugtrio.
Jokes aside, Wugtrio is absolutely limited by its movepool, what you see here is about all of the good physicial coverage moves it gets. If it got Ice Spinner and Earthquake, it'd definitely be used more. Still, for any non resists Wug usually outspeeds and deals with them fast. Tera Ice covers the big weaknesses like Flapple, Lilligant, Sawsbuck, and Gogoat. Just, make sure they don't have Sucker Punch or anything.
Wugtrio CANNOT take a single hit, another major drawback.

 

[Zelcra]

did you mean to put +1 for Hisuian Zorua? It says 0 for zorua, yet its 4 speed lower than +1 Honchkrow.

Oh oops. Well, given that Zorua-Hisui has been moved back into LC (and first impressions seem to indicate that the mon would've fallen out of PU anyways) I'll just remove the entry entirely.

 

[Togkey]

Gonna give my thoughts on the new drops after playing with them some.

​

This Pokemon feels borderline busted to me; it's speed tier somehow outmatches the likes of Basculin, Houndoom, Haunter, and Squawkabilly, some of PU's speediest wallbreakers. Charizard's bulk also outclasses that of other Fire-types like Pyroar and Houndoom, letting it take neutral hits far better. Another merit Charizard has over other Fire-types is its insane set diversity; Swords Dance, Belly Drum, and all-out-attacking sets with utility options like Will-O-Wisp and Flame Charge along with so many viable tera types make this thing a nightmare to initially respond to. I do think physical sets are pretty mediocre but even those can still put in stupid amounts of work if given the right MU due to Charizard's amazing speed and solid bulk.

​

I thought this Pokemon was going to be busted in PU from the moment I knew it sucked in NU and was going to drop (pretty early on into NU's lifespan), but Honchkrow's Stealth Rock weakness and Sucker Punch being such a weak move means Honchkrow is pigeon-holed into a Choice Scarf set that, while effective at cleaning, typically only gets 2HKO's at max before being KO'd itself, or a Heavy-Duty Boots set with no recovery and disappointing coverage. The introduction of Dachsbun also makes Honckrow's life much harder, because even Steel Tera Blast sets have to fear a Body Press. Insomnia seems like it would make Honckrow a suitable offensive Lilligant check, but its OHKO'd by an super-effective Tera Blast coverage. Overall I think Honchkrow is just very good, not broken from what I've seen.

​

I've been using an all-out-attacking Spidops set, and it makes for a phenomenal revenge killer and pivot in such an offensive metagame. Spidops has surprisingly potent coverage, boasting Rock Tomb for Charizard and other Flying-types, Brick Break for Perrserker and Tera Steel Pokemon, and Poison Jab for the new Dachsbun, all of which can be Stakeout-boosted to deal surprisingly good damage. Spidops has been super surprising to me, surprisingly good damage, surprisingly good bulk, surprisingly good coverage.

​

I've used this guy the least because he's admittedly quite boring to use; Dachsbun is just a great defensive glue Pokemon. Even when defensively-oriented, Fairy/Fighting coverage is phenomenal offensively and many bulkier Pokemon lose long-term due to lacking the recovery PP that Wish has while being phased out by Yawn or Roar. Well-Baked Body is also a godsend ability in this tier, which was severely lacking in Fire resists besides Quaxwell who's fallen off like a brick and others that lack recovery like Gabite and Lumineon.

Overall I think this shift was a 100000% net positive for the tier and the meta is in an amazing place currently. My only gripe is Lilligant's existence who as far as I'm concerned does the exact same thing Vivillon does except it doesn't need Heavy-Duty Boots or a Focus Sash and can miss Sleep Powder sometimes.
Wow this just looks like I copypasted Asa's post lol.

 

[Melt Gibson]

Alright, after a bit of playing, I've firmly decided that I think Lilligant is not good for the tier right now.

My only gripe is Lilligant's existence who as far as I'm concerned does the exact same thing Vivillon does except it doesn't need Heavy-Duty Boots or a Focus Sash and can miss Sleep Powder sometimes.

This is pretty much exactly correct, except Lilligant is also faster and considerably stronger (20 more base SpA!). Pure Grass is a somewhat unfortunate typing to be saddled with, but it's much less of a concern when Lilligant is one of, if not the single best abuser of Tera in the tier right now. Fire, Rock, Electric, and even oddball picks like Dragon or Steel all allow you to resist things you were once weak to, open the gate to setup opportunities, and blaze through your checks. You're also able to get the jump on a lot of things before a QD, toss a Sleep Powder with odds that, while there is a margin of error, are still considerably in your favor, and start setting up to unmatchable levels while the opponent is asleep.

The list of things that are PU by usage that Lilligant outspeeds is seen above. This is about half of the tier that, unboosted, you can freely click Sleep Powder on (obviously barring Gogoat, Dartrix, and Flapple pre-Tera). The two in this list that have access to Insomnia (Spidops and Honchkrow) don't want to use it because it's severely lackluster compared to their other options. Ampharos and the Dragon NFEs can phase you out... IF they don't die AND IF they hit Dragon Tail. You're also not entirely out of commission if they do, since not much prevents you from just coming back later unless you were already very low. So, what are your reasonable, consistent options of checking Lilligant?

1. Aqua Jet on Basculin.
Strong STAB priority from one of the best breakers we have to offer that's also super effective against two of the most common Lilligant Tera types. This will let you pick up the revenge kill and get on your merry way. The downside is this requires you to run Basculin, requires them to have already used Tera into two of the possible types Lilligant could be running, and that it also does not always kill.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Lilligant: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

2. Click Sucker Punch and pray.
Self explanatory. Hope you can get enough chip or just hit with enough raw power to kill it before it kills you.

3. Have a faster Scarf user.
Unless they have more than one Quiver Dance up. If that's the case, never mind, this stops being an answer.

That's it. That's all. Those are your options. Unless the player for whatever reason just throws Lilligant away, it will rarely, if ever, have a game where it does not do anything. At its worst it picks up a kill or two, and at its best it steals entire games. I think that, in the near future, a Lilligant suspect test is absolutely warranted.

 

[Morge]

With home (Hopefully) just around the corner I wanted to do some quick theory crafting about some of the hisui NFE's that we're gonna get when it releases.

Fast fighting type isn't really something we have in the tier right now so thats already pretty good, 115 speed is really great outspeeding a lot of threats. Fighting/Poison is also pretty good, new grounded poison type to absorb T-Spikes and it resists rocks means it doesn't really need to run boots, and is free to run other items. Eviolite might let it survive certian hits that it otherwise wouldn't but I see choice items being better overall, but if you wanna run a set up sweeper with swords dance eviolite seems like the way to go. It also gets actually good stab moves unlike regular sneasel. Probably the mon I'm most excited for overall this seems really cool.

Yeah this thing is ridiculous, fantastic typing great bulk with eviolite boosted further by intimidate and a great movepool to go alongside it. I'm not sold on this being broken since its offenses aren't breaking any records, although they're still decent and it gets swords dance and swift swim lol, but even if its not banned it's moving up anyway lol but for the time we have it this feels like an auto include on most teams.

Dragon steel is a goated typing and its eviolite boosted bulk is great on both ends. The thing that immediately jumps out to me is it being the freest basculin switch in of my life, resisting both wave crash and head smash. Suffers from similar issues to regular sligoo in that its got a bad utility movepool and isn't exactly great offensively but this on paper seems like a strong wall to just sit on things at least. Definitely has potential but I feel like I would need to see it in practice to decide how good it is.

I guess with last respects banned this thing is fine to stay. Eviolite basculin sounds interesting but I doubt it would be that good compared to other more offensive items and rattled sure is an ability to have. Probably worse than basculin blue striped overall but like it still does adaptability sets about as well as the other 2 and eviolite sets might be fun.